Bill Bailey Interview

Mine’s Bigger than yours!

Featured in Rip It Up – August 2014

Comedian Bill Bailey has to take his phone calls from his office because the racket from his ever growing menagerie of exotic creatures is to much a distraction.  “It’s always the same.  Soon as the phone goes the Dingos start howling.  They feel they’re territory is being threaten by some kind of telephonic being, perhaps.  And then the Parrots all start up, squawkin’ and carrying on.  It tends to be a bit distracting, so it’s quieter in the office.  It’s like we’ve about run out of room in our West London house for all these animals! Doctor Dolittle will need to sail to darkest Peru, I fear, in search of escape.”

Hang on, wait a minute.  Did you say Dingo’s?  “Ah, yes,” replies Bailey in his measured, faintly Cockney accent, “But not the baby-worrying kind.  These are Indonesian Dingos.  They are a lot smaller, more slender that their Aussie version – They ‘re a cousin, same DNA.  They probably trotted over a land bridge one, dropped down and became marooned on the Indonesian archipelago.”  He tells me that these were dogs rescued from the pound whilst Bailey was in Indonesian filming.  Sneaking them through customs must have been a mission? “Yeah.  Tell them to stay very quiet (Laughs).  The law here has become much more expedient… not the six month quarantine that you used to have…it’s down to a few days, if you have the right paper work on this.”

This all came about from a recent trip in search of the real ‘Origin of the Species’.  “Yes, between the last time I was in New Zealand and now (he plans to be back in September) I spent a large part of that time working on a documentary about Alfred Russell Wallace, who was a Victorian botanist, explorer, biologist, evolutionary originator.  He was a younger contemporary of Darwin.  He travelled through Indonesia, Malaysia and what was Borneo and wrote in a wide variety of scientific journals.  He came up with a scientific theory of evolution, independent of Charles Darwin.”  Bailey’s referring to Bailey’s Jungle Hero – a two part documentary about naturalist Alfred Russel Wallace that was part doco, part mad Englishman-travelogue. All very incredible but surely we’d know that Darwin didn’t develop his theories in isolation?  “All this I found out in a bird watching guide called ‘The Birds of Wallacia (the English arrogant name for parts of Indonesia).  That started me down the path of years of research: of obsession.  All culminating in this TV show (Bill Bailey’s Jungle Hero), unveiling his portrait in the Natural History Museum and getting a bronze statue of him erected in the Darwin gardens, outside.”  “What’s interesting about Darwin’s release of the theory was not so much offending the church or his (devoutly religious ) wife… it’s more interesting than that….he was worried about getting his facts right and being also there wasn’t really a universal outcry.  People were hungry for a bit of change.  The opposition from the church was only one faction.  The church had been in charge for so long, people were sick of it.  As early as 1816 there was a comedy review that suggested that we might be evolved from orang-utans…the idea had been around for a long time and they were sort of ready for it.  Of course all the modernist crazies and colonists ended up in Aotearoa – escaping the old world.  “Yes, (adopting a Python-esque colonial voice) let’s high tail it to our beautiful Utopia in the South (NZ).”  Which dovetails nicely with Bailey’s new show:  Limboland. ‘It’s a place of transition, between the truth and reality.  It came about because I realised that a lot of stories in the show started to coerce around this central theme of things not quite being what they seem.  Things we once revered to be stolid and impeachable are now revealed to be flawed and fickle.  What can we believe?  Who can we trust?  I think it’s also a sense of reflection, looking back to child hood and looking at what we thought in childhood and how things turned out.  It’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s a state of weakness, as we get older (laughs).”

Comedy, even to the youngest can only work if a number of rules and assumptions are accepted.  Mr Bean, for example, works because every idea and theme is pretty much based around universal concepts such as Christmas.  Bailey, as well does this.  Particularly with music, where he reworks well known tunes, for comedic effect.  “In the show I, for instance, rewrite ‘Happy Birthday’, the most familiar song on the planet.  I made it more, shall we say, ‘downbeat’, given it lower expectations.  It came about when I talked to a music lawyer and it’s still in copy write.  If you sing it live, you should pay royalties.  So I was motivated to write my own, to gift to the world, to use without recourse to pay performance rights.” Bailey is well known for his musical content, being a gifted performer.  But sadly, he won’t be bringing his 7 headed guitar Down Under this time around.  “I’d never get it on the plane.”  He will however be evolving some other instruments, including a six string made for him out of a real bible.  Fittingly, evolution, religion and travel in the name of history vs comedy all seem to drive Bailey on.  Here’s hoping he doesn’t try to adopt any native birds while he’s down here – he’s rather partial to Keas, apparently.  I just want to see a parrot eat a car.  What a brilliant bird – beautiful plumage!”


Return the Bat to the Belfry

Poster from Murphy's recent tour which ends in Wellington December 15 2013

Poster from Murphy’s recent tour which ended in Wellington December 15 2013

Published in Rip It Up, December 2013

“He lives there?”- exclaims ex-vocalist for seminal Goth band Bauhaus, Peter Murphy, upon leaning that Killing Joke Front man Jaz Coleman has an Island outside Auckland. “Tell him that he better well come and pay homage, if he’s in town.” Laughing out loud he talks fondly of his old mate from the trenches of the 80’s alt-music scene. Murphy is on Skype, beaming in from Istanbul, where he’s lived for over 20 years, to talk about his upcoming trip to Australia and New Zealand. He and his band will be performing Bauhaus originals, nearly 35 years after their initial release. “I’d just completed the tour of my album Nineth and was in LA. The promoter suggested doing a night of Bauhaus material. So we did and it completely sold out! Bauhaus fans, old and new, are completely loyal and I’m very grateful for that. A second show was suggested and I thought about making it a whole tour, instead. We’ve been going most of the year now.” Murphy doesn’t think it strange or unusual revisiting the material, which includes their singles “In a Flat Field”; “She’s in Parties”; and their ultimate signature “Bela Lagosi’s Dead.” “Well, if you’re Beethoven you wouldn’t think it strange to play your 9th Symphony 30 year’s on, now would it?”

When I ask him why he’s living in Turkey he’s gives me a short lesson on the history of dance in that country culminating in the explanation that his wife, Beyhan, was offered the challenge of setting up a contemporary arts company in Istanbul. “Despite all I’ve done, amongst these dancers and patrons, I’m just the ‘husband,” he jokes, “she’s the star, the boss! And I’m not allowed in the studio during rehearsals – my looks are too distracting! ”
Indeed, it was Murphy’s gaunt check bones, slick black hair and dark clothing that set Bauhaus apart from their peers. They started innocuously in 1979 in quiet Wellingbrough, Northampton but became the Godfathers of Goth. Their sparse angular, music was influenced by the Bauhaus modernist movement of pre-War Europe. “We were completely original. Unlike Bowie, who is a manipulator and magpie, we were completely original artists. I still am. There was absolutely nothing to do in Wellingbrough so we were very fortunate to all find each other, to make this music that reflected our feeling of isolation.”

Mates Daniel Ash and David Haskins and his brother Kevin had played together in bands since childhood, including The Craze, which performed a few times in Northampton in 1978. When they disbanded Ash convinced his old school friend Peter Murphy to join him, simply because he had the right look for a band. Murphy, who’d been working in a printing factory, decided to go for it, despite never having written any lyrics, sung professionally or made music. It was during their first rehearsal that he co-wrote the song “In the Flat Field”. The band went on to perfect their barren, modernist sound producing four albums of stunning, original and, as it happens, defining material. “Radiohead would not have formed if it wasn’t for us”, claims Murphy. ”Well, that’s exaggerating but it’s true! We were very inspirational. Joy Division and even Bowie, was at the time, happening but we weren’t entirely aware of them. We existed as well, but not because of them.”

Just prior to recording of their fourth album, Burning from the Inside (1983), Murphy contracted a serious bout of pneumonia leaving the rest of the band to take over the record, including some of the lead vocals. The lead single, “She’s in Parties”, reached number 26 and gained heavy rotation status on commercial radio. It meant international tours and big success in Europe and the Far East. However, the night before they were supposed to perform two shows at Hammersmith Palais in London the group decided to quit. The 5 July show became their swan song. The audience was not forewarned but after a long encore consisting of some of their early songs, David J left the stage with the words “rest in peace”. Burning from the Inside was released a week later. Bauhaus reunited for a tour in 1998 and again in 2005 but Murphy is adamant now that that was it. “We’ve done it, This tour of Bauhaus material is my tour. It’s for fans and that’s it. We won’t be getting back together.” Not that Murphy needs to. After Bauhaus he embarked on a long solo career that’s clocked up many albums, with his latest being collaboration with Youth, from Killing Joke, in the producers chair. The writing and production of his new work Lion, was very speedy. “We wrote these songs in 9 days. Prolific, yes! But he’s very inspirational. I don’t like to look at my work as chronological; I create work that can belong in any era but I do like to think of it (the new album) as the Bauhaus we promised.”

Lion will be released in early 2014.

Peter Murphy, performing Bauhaus material will tour NZ on

Sat, Dec 14 – Auckland @ Studio
Sun, Dec 15 – Wellington @ Bodega

Interview with Rhian, just Prior to the Wellington show : Tales from Elsewhere – Oct 2 2013

Bio Photo

Bio Photo

The first time I met electronic artist/composer Rhian Sheehan was when I was babysitting his daughter, Niva. He’d just released his first album Paradigm Shift on the fledgling label Loop. It was constructed in the dingy spare room of his Newtown flat. Yet despite this tiny biosphere his subjects, and atmosphere, were vast – as vast as the universe itself. The topic was loosely the aeronautical, with an emphasis on space travel. Space it seems has become a lifelong passion for Sheehan who’s gone on to make more music on the theme and now composes and produces professionally for major US clients including a famous planetarium . “There are a number of cinematic elements that creep over into my personal projects from that composition work,” he tells me over lunch at a Wellington café, “Although I haven’t fully given up on the children’s toy fetish.” Sheen’s grinning as he recalls how he came to write much of the themes of his third album Standing in Silence around the results of a few mad hours “mucking about with the comb and workings of Niva’s wind-up music box”. The dinky metallic tune formed the basis of many of the pieces on the project. These surface again in his latest work Stories from Elsewhere. “This is a departure (from the last one, which was inspired by a trip to India). It’s a set of experimental lullabies, all quite delicate, esoteric, ethereal.”

Sheehan’s teamed up with a number of players from the album including Andy Hummel (Rosie Tin Teacaddy, Woolshed Sessions), Ryan Prebble (The Nudge, Fly My Pretties), Jeff Boyle (Jakob), Steve Bremmer (The Adults), Sheehan’s wife Raashi Malik (Rhombus), Mailee Matthews (Charlie Ash), Jane Peirard, Ed Zuccolio (Harbour City Electric and members of the Orchestra Wellington to create a rare aural and visual treat at the Wellington Opera House in early November: Stories form Elsewhere – Live. Given the gossamer quality of the music on Stories… I wondered how they would translate to the stage. “We performed … Silence at the Opera House and were really surprised. We didn’t expect such a large audience for this ethereal ambient music. This time there will be songs from Stories… mixed with other pieces, moments of quiet with moments of loudness. It’ll be more dynamic this time.” A sonic undulation I suggest. A wry smile is the reply. “Working with an orchestra is going to be interesting. I made Stories… at (Wellington’s) Surgery (Studios). Unlike the previous albums it was all live music, real music, live instruments and guitars but recorded with plenty of analogue equipment. You can see the irony in an electronic artist making music with analogue equipment for production on CDs.” He explains that the musicians from the session will join him on stage, so the orchestra is really a mere extension of that, all be it a more crowded proposition!” The show will include highlights from the … Silence album and also multi-media work from a past collaborator Gareth moon (Pleasure Kraft). Visuals will include HD time-lapse photography of New Zealand landscapes and starscapes from Auckland photographer Joseph Michael, making this a very special event – for every compartment of your celestial cerebellum.

Recent Cover article for Blacklistt

Groove Guide 2013 - Cover Article and supporting articles

Groove Guide 2013 – Cover Article and supporting articles – all written by me, Tim Gruar

And here’s the article for your reading pleasure:

Guitarist for Nu-Metal band Blacklistt, Marcus Powell, is taking a break when the phone rings. “A bit of a relief” he tells me. It’s good to do an interview right now. Take the heat off. He’s in the middle of getting ink done. What could be more rock’n’roll? “Im getting a hawk, holding a heart and inside that is a compass. It’s right across my chest. For me the ‘the hawk’ is the all-seeing eyes. It can only see what’s in front of it. And its holding the heart because, to me, what ever direction you’re going, that’s your compass – so follow your heart!” True that. And he reminds me that only with pain is there the gain, a message portrayed on the cover of Blacklistt’s new self-titled album, which is due to release on Friday the 13th. The art is a blended slash of a skull, fantail and a blood rose. “Damien (Alexander, vocals) came up with the idea. But it’s a collaborative thing – we’re four highly creative, highly opinionated perfectionists so it’s no wonder it’s taken us so long. When know we’ve got a good product when we all finally agree!” And for Blacklistt, it’s also a kind of phoenix moment, the band rising from the legal ashes of a bitter feud between them and former drummer Shelton Woolright over the legal use of their former name. “A lot of the reason why it took so long was that battle. We wanted to get Blindspott back. We are Blindspott. We asked Shelton if he wanted to be part of it (when we reformed) and he never replied then we got offered Homegrown (in that same year), we offered him to come in but then out of the blue we get a Court order to shut down.” And we thought “oh well! Let’s sort this out but it didn’t and we thought if we keep on fighting it will never get sorted.” Powell’s referring to Blindspott’s reunion in 2009. Two years before, after 10 years together and many publicized band fallouts along the way, Blindspott had disbanded to focus on solo efforts. But in 2009 the band announced they were reuniting for a one off at the all-Kiwi Vodafone Homegrown Music Festival in the Capital. The gig went well, all be it without Woolright. Encouraged, they decided to write new material, reforming with its earliest, original members: Damian Alexander (vocals), Marcus Powell (guitar, backing vocals), Gareth Fleming (bass) and Karl Vilisini (turntables, keyboards). Then suddenly on 26 September 2010 Woolwright pulled their Facebook page down, the same day they were confirmed for the line up in the following year’s Homegrown. The next day a photo was posted by a band member showing Tristan Reilly as the new drummer for the band. Just prior to the 2011 Homegrown gig Woolright had the band’s Facebook page pulled down again and this time he sent in sent the legal eagles. “But you know”, Powell surmises “the best thing that could of happened is us saying F***k it! Keep it (the ‘Blindspott’ name). “And it was amazing as soon as we let go of that, all these other doors opened up.” Ironically, appropriately the band headed at Homegrown 2012 again before touring the new From the Blind Spot show, which sold out virtually everywhere. The fan base was still with them, despite the name change. “They are pretty hardcore,” says Powell. “Seeing the numbers that turned up was phenomenal, it built pressure to release an album.”

The new work is, he suggests a stark contrast to recording the second Blindspott album, End the Silence. Previously there was a lot of pressure to produce three-minute radio friendlies. “But we thought “we’re not Blindspott” so F***K that”. We’ll jam it the way we wanted. A six minute track is just fine, eh? No boundaries.” Freeing up the creative ‘juices’, even meant turntablist Karl Vilisini “weird fruity stuff” got a look in, at least on the surface. A “writer’s weekend” on Waiheke Island last year produced many of the album’s key music “Productive but good to just hang out, chill as mates, and it definitely brought a vibe back.”

The new single “Home” written there, renamed from “Waiheke Dub”, featuring Albert Cook (Three Houses Down) on drums. It recalls the poignancy of earlier singles like “Phlex” whilst showcasing a very different side to Blacklistt’s sound. In the summer months Blacklistt hit Parnell’s York Street studios with engineer Hayden Taylor following hard-out ‘perfection’ rehearsals at their space, the Killing Room. Overall this album brings back the assault of Blindspott’s first album and the original energy of a group of fifth formers, circa 1997. As for their hopes for Blacklistt Powell’d love go #1. “Blindspott were only local act in history to have two consecutive albums debut at the top! That’d be cool! But no matter – making music is n our DNA. Our fans want it, we want it. So there you are!” Following its release on 13.09.2013 the band hit the road, “taking this album to our fans will be like delivering on a promise.” Pledge allegiance!

Interview: Glen Frey

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Published in Groove Guide March 2013 and

Groove Guide has a good old natter with Eagles guitarist and founding band member Glenn Frey.  

Ok, so where are you?

Well I’m here in my studio, the Doghouse, it’s in LA.  We recorded (the Eagles) A long Road out of Eden here.  It’s been around about 15 or 16 years or so.” 

“This is where I recorded my new album (After Hours).  It’s different from my previous rock stuff.  I wanted to do material from the Great American Songbook.  My Dad’s 91 and my Mum is 87.  I wanted to record something from their day – from the 1930’s to the 1960’s.  I think at this point in my career I could do something honest, and take a bit of a risk.   

What was behind the idea for the new album?

“Richard (Davis) and Michael Thomson and I started looking up these songs on Youtube and we were arranging them, in the studio on piano.  We would break them down, work out the orchestra parts and what knot.  I wanted songs that a really great, that I really loved like “For Sentimental Reasons” and Burt’s “The Look of Love”.  There’s “Route 66” which (he hums the chorus) is a great, enduring sort of rhythm… and there’s (Una Mae Carlisle’s) “Getting old before my time”.  I like that a cocktail hour song.  Yes, a sort of lounge feel.”     

Lounge and Jazz seem miles from your earlier stuff?

“There was music in our house, mainly what my parents like and I had plenty of pop on the radio so I went that way…I had early bands like the Hideouts (later the Subterraneans) which were all about being a teenager with a guitar.  I could play a bit and that helped.  Pop was the way to go.  But I’ve always like the old stuff, too – especially the jazz standards.  There are tracks by Tony Bennett, and Dinah Washington – like “I wanna cry” and Peggy Lee, America’s sweet heart.  At night you just want sit down and chill out and listen to these great songs.”

“The Eagles were a radio friendly band. We were lucky with that.  It’s what sold, too.  Back then (in the 70’s) radio was king.  But it was also big in the earlier years and those songs (from my album After Hours) are all about the killer radio days, too

The Eagles were almost early Americana – Musicians seem to look back to the earliest roots of their country to find their identity when things are bad.

“I know what you mean about musicians wanting to look back (to the folk era), what they are calling Americana – that thing of looking back (to find some core identity to hang on to in modern depression ravaged, globalised America).  I’m not sure that’s the case though.   In the 70’s we were sort of stealing from our forefathers.  Country and AOR was popular on FM radio, where album tracks got played.  You could be more experimental, too.”

Are you defined by your earlier music, like “Hotel California”?

“That song – it was a demo that Eagles guitarist Don (Felder) wrote. He’d given us plenty of ideas since he’d joined but always without lyrics. But this one had room to write something.  We were interested.  We called it ‘Mexican Reggae’.  That was the working title.”

“Don (Henley) and me wrote most of it (the lyrics).  We all drove into L.A. in the evening. Nobody was from California but if you drive in to Los Angeles in the evening you see this glow on the horizon of lights (like the Arctic lights, sort of).  Don and I were thinking of Hollywood, all those dreams of being a big star.  So we got the messages of drugs booze and all that stuff that was so excessive in the 70’s.  We wrote ‘Life in the Fast Lane’ and ‘Wasted Time’ and other songs based on those trips.”

“Yes we became the occupants…the guests of Hotel California.  But, you know, it was a first time for everything.  When you’re young, everthing’s on your radar.  We tried it.  There’s a first time for everything and a last!”

“And, you’re right, the Eagles got big. We were, as you say, part of that thing (the record industry juggernaut).  But that was how it worked then. You were part of that world then.  It was all very exciting and we were along for the ride.”

“I am humbled some times when, like you say, you hear of your stuff being sung (by a school choir, at a wedding, etc.)  It’s great to know that the Eagles songs are part of people’s lives.  Yes, they own them now.”

Doin’ it with AFP

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 This was written for the Groove Guide in anticipation of Amanda’s Tour this Month.  Unfortunately it’s been posponed until September Now.

“It was terrifying,” remembers singer, songwriter, ringleader Amanda Palmer (aka AFP) about one fateful day in February 2011.  On the phone from New Orleans, she notes: “I was at the Napier airport, which is about the size of an outside toilet, with all the other passengers huddled around this big tv.  Out on the tarmac the plane from Christchurch had just landed and the passengers were arriving in the terminal (oblivious) to the news a massive earthquake that had just rocked their home town.  It was heartbreaking.”  I’ve just reminded her of that moment because I’d found her ‘bookmarked’ tweet when researching for this interview.  At the time of those quakes I was following Palmer’s last local solo tour adventures via facebook and at the precise moment her comments were coming through my office was erupting with the news from down south.  “You heard it here first, huh?  I was actually tweeting in a car going away from the airport.  My first reaction was to get on a plane, fly down and do some fundrasing shows.  But everyone was like ‘No, don’t do that’, there’s no infrastructure or anything.’  I couldn’t play if I’d wanted to – not then.  Had my flight had been an hour before I could have landed into ….well.”  Armageddon?  “Yes.  You know the internet is so fast.  It really isn’t just this big static thing.   It’s the new town crier!”  “I did go back to Christchurch with the (Dresden) Dolls (the ‘Brechtian punk cabaret’ duo she founded with Brian Viglione) this January and I sorta expected everything to just be there, like the quake didn’t bring it all down.  I was amazed at all damage and rubble.  Al’s Bar where I was supposed to play (in 2011) is still off limits (in the Red Zone)”. 

 There’s a couple of things you should know about Palmer.  One is that she loves her very loyal fans, is totally interactive with them and relies on them almost for her very existence.  The other, is that she loves being Downunder.  Palmer views her relationship with her audience as completely 360 degrees.  This has always been the case, even from the early Dresden Dolls shows in Boston.  Audience members came as much to participate as to watch.  They often wore dramatic make-up and clothing that pushed their cabaret/theater aesthetic.  Coordinated by the band’s The Dirty Business Brigade fans joined them on stage as stilt walkers, living statues, fire breathers, performing artists of all kinds – they were an integral part of the shows.

As Palmer ventured out solo she used crowd sourcing even more extensively.  Her latest album, Theatre is Evil, recorded with the Grand Theft Orchestra, was funded through a project, raising over one $1Milliion dollars.  Mind you, the return on investment was also generous, with pledgees value-eligible options like for decorated turntables, crafty gifts, personal portrait sketches, art books and even a personal appearance at their next fundraiser, as well as the final recorded product!  

 The new album was recorded in Melbourne with Michael Mcuilken, Chad Raines, and Jherek Bischoff, a brilliant band of “reconnaissance hacks… with musical super powers.” and producer/engineer John Congleton (“who’s worked with a zillion amazing people including St. Vincent, Modest Mouse, and Xiu Xiu”).  “I decided on Melbourne for two reasons.  I wanted to get away from the normal and I’ve recorded in a log cabin before, it’s isolated and there are no distractions but I still wanted coffee down the street and nightlife and Melbourne has that.  Also Kiwis and Aussies allow me to be me: this crazy chick who breaks rules.  It’s a more tolerant society.  I don’t feel like my system isn’t under fire.”  Palmer’s referring to a recent online attack of her call for local musicians to join her band on stage, promising to pay in ‘beer money’.  The furore was started by a fan claimed she was exploiting talent for free, an odd comment given most AFP fans, at least  in this part of the world, would amputate their necessaries to stand on stage with her.  “You see that’s what I love about Kiwis, their much more broad minded.  It’s a more relaxed thing.  Just enjoy the opportunity!”  Perfect sentiment I ask, referring to one of stand out album tracks “Do it with a Rock Star”.  “Ha.  Yes that’s a collision between the f**ker and the f**kee!  The general stereotype of a rocker is a pastiche cliché’, partying till dawn, but in the unromantic reality we just head to the hotel room, check emails, drink cocoa in our jammies.  Mundane stuff.”  Really, Amanda.  You will never be mundane.

Review : Dust and Dirt – The Black Seeds

The Black Seeds

Dust and Dirt - the New Album by The Black Seeds

 Published in the Groove Guide April 2012

Wellington’s The Black Seeds are one of the best, long serving reggae-funk-fusion collectives in the country.  Their conscious lyrics and modern grooves reflect a soulful ambiance.  A move from Newtown’s “Surgery” to their own space in Mt Cook has brought some new inspirations.  There’s still a few staple dance hall numbers, notably “Settle Down,” “Rusted Story,” and the title track but its numbers like the down-tempo leanings of “Out Of Light,” with its more subdued undertow and a psychedelic edge, that’s made me sit up and take notice.  Also grabbing my attention are the very nice funky lounge tunes including the quirky single “Pippy Pip”, which is also downright infectious – especially live!  And finally worth noting are the soul tappers “Gabriel’s Strut Club,” and “Loose Cartilage”.   As with all their releases, the story on wax is only half the tale – I’d thoroughly recommend catching them live when they tour next month to get the full picture.